Pending Approval Concerned Citizen
1:37 pm on Tuesday, June 26, 2012

Funding will be an issue for all Illinois schools if Quinn and Madigan push their pension funding onto local districts!! Schools will have to spend additional funds to pay for the part that the state is currently required to pay. And with tax caps in this area, if they cannot raise revenue to pay for them then they must cut services such as staff or programs. The state is trying to put the blame on teachers and other state employees for the mess they have created. Check out http://www.foxbusiness.com/personal-finance/2012/06/20/column-five-things-to-consider-before-cutting-pension-benefits/

Ditto! The district's problems did not start with this board and we are feeling the results of years of questionable decisions. I don't find it shocking that people would start to look elsewhere for career advancement. These problems did not start with this board and like many things in life - you often have to face the music years after a bad move. The music is now playing!

Being a District employee it's easy to point to a Board that won't grant your every wish and make them the "Royal Seven". Funny I thought that's what you would have called the past Boards or maybe the title "Rubber Stamp Seven" would have been more appropriate.

Fox News is no news. It is incredibly biased toward one side and often incorrect. There is likely much more to the story than you are being told. Please find a reputable source and report back later.

How about this source. Or don't you like it ether? http://southtownstar.suntimes.com/13425809-522/kadner-suburban-tax-rates-double-those-in-chicago.html

Well the fingers can be pointed any which way you want. The question IS if that passes and pensions become the Districts...what then? How do we pay for that while we continue to pay for our own lives and needs?

To Committed to 308, You are right on the money. All Quinn and Madigan are doing is to try to cause problems between the tax payers and those who do or will receive a state pension. Madigan has been on board for years when the state failed to meet their funding obligations and you know NOTHING passes the general assembly without his stamp of approval!! He is just try to move the issue away from himself and others while blaming everything on state workers. I know there are abuses that need to be corrected, however these are very few and the only ones to make the 6 pm news. We as voters need to really dig into who is funding these folks in Springfield!! And why is Quinn giving all these corporations huge tax breaks at the expense of our schools and local towns. Motorola got over 100 million in tax breaks for 3000 workers!! Peanuts at what they would have paid in taxes!! We need to wake up folks! These politicans in Springfield are trying to divide us up by any means possible and while we're fighting with each other, their robbing us blind! Then we wake up with new fees and taxes and ask ourselves how did this happen. Just like last month when they tried to pass a new 5% satellite tv tax. Didn't make it though because the satellite companies got emails out to enough customers who contacted their local representatives. We need to stay on top of all proposed legislation!!

LOL - my house is already unmarketable! ; ) I have concerns about the district's administration and BOE, but my concerns pre-date the current superintendent and the current BOE. If the sky is falling, it started falling bit by bit, years ago. That's more my point.

However, as I've always said, we've been blessed with excellent classroom teachers. Bravo to them! The administration, even at our local school level, is mediocre, at best. C'est la vie. You work with what you have.

@Committed: "we have already trimmed the district budgets multiple times". Really ? then where did this $40,000 "raise" to the new superintendent come from ? could we have made better use of that money ?

@ ayar
Trimming a budget doesn't mean you zero it out!! Maybe you do but the business always has cash on hand. Take a finance class.

@concerned: "Trimming a budget doesn't mean you zero it out!! Maybe you do but the business always has cash on hand. Take a finance class."
Concerned, I have. I know that if you're spending more than your taking in, it's going to go south. 40K is a chunk of change, no matter which part of the budget it gets transferred from, and could be better spent - maybe for buses. This is "for the kids"...

What would changing a school board do? You can put in the most liberal and "yes man" board you want or you can put in the most conservative and "no to everything" group you want. You said it yourself, pensions numbers will be difficult to cut regardless of who the board is.

Another point to consider is Chicago, they pretty much control Springfield. Chicago taxpayers are taxed twice in terms of teacher pensions. Once for their own and again for the State fund. That control block could be a big voice in the "reform"

KarenN I have viewed the interview and I'm not at all pleased. Whether or not he liked the new board I still feel he jumped ship. While his style might not be in-line with the new BOE it's the BOE that was elected by the people who cared to vote. Since Dr. ODonnell is collecting on another pension I would quess that he might not really need this job. I do wish them all well in their new endeavors.
I have thought about walking out that door at my home from time to time but I have responsibilities that don't allow for that option. Winners never quit and quitters never win is the theme at my home lately.
I have a feeling this district is in more trouble than we know!

The interview is not flattering to either party - the BOE or Dr. O'Donnell.

Jane I came back after making dinner and you beat me once again. I agree with you and would like to add that I'm not happy with all the choices that the BOE has made either. I'm disgusted period!

Looks like O'Donnel really did care about the kids since he understood he would have to leave in order for the polarization in administration philosophies would cause the kids the most harm. Really sad in a way because he sounds very qualified to lead a school district. Nice find with the video BTW...

O'Donnell was just a bad choice for our district, and I already have concerns about Wendt.

John - minor nitpick, but principals are generally on year to year contracts. I don't know for sure if Dr. Rich was an exception, but if he was like the rest his contract was technically up every year.

@Richard..maybe so or maybe so now. Matt and I spoke quite a bit towards the end and he said it was a 3 year deal. So maybe they are all different. Regardless there are many reasons for these people leaving. The number one reason we like to think they are here is "for the kids" specifically our kids. When they leave it's easy for us to say "oh they left because of the Board" if you don't like the board then that's an easy comment to make. Reality is that Colvin for example pretty much maxed out his position in this District. His chances of becoming the Superintendent were probably slim to none so what does someone do when they want to move up and can't? They relocate. Corporate relocation is my business and I work with it every day of the week all over the area. School Districts are no different than any other business. School Administration at it's basest level is management. We seem to hold an illusion that administrators and teachers are locked in to helping OUR kids. Kids are kids, whether they are here or in Naperville or Winnetka or Hinsdale or Somonauk. Districts, like companies, tend to pay more for experienced workers or managers. Those that can afford to that is. The days of a person working for the same money they made 10 years ago and the days of promoting from within from mailroom to CEO are gone.

"This whole turn over gives us a chance to get some great people in our system..."

Ah, you mean like our "altruistic" new Superintendent who hoodwinked the school board in Arkeny, Iowa and got a buyout on his contract on the eve of taking the new job (at higher pay than Dr. Dan!) in Oswego? Yep, no greed there.

Laura, so your saying that "public servants" should receive sub standard pay and benefits because of the career path they have chosen? I also like how you lump them all together as lairs, cheats and thieves!! How do you know their replacements are going to be better. You make a lot of assumptions!! Is someone having a bad day?

The Superintendent of Niles, IL was making $600,000 a couple of years ago.

Please check your facts before you type. The administration leaving this district are devoted, dedicated people that have sacrificed for the children, and they want to! I take exception to your comment about lying, cheating, stealing. Where do you live? This is Oswego. We need a BOE that will work for what's best for the CHILDREN, not themselves!

John -- It is totally untrue that the superintendent in Niles (or any Superintendent in Illinois) was making $600,000. Do your research -- don't just pass along rumors.
One resource to find a listing of the top 200 Illinois superintendent salaries is http://www.familytaxpayers.org/salary.php Of course, O'Donnell made that list. The top pay -- a whopping $358,750 -- is paid out in Schaumburg. In my view, there should be a direct connection between student outcomes and superintendent's pay.

Devoted -- Regarding your statement that "The administration leaving this district are devoted, dedicated people that have sacrificed for the children," WHAT have they sacrificed??? It's a job, for which they are paid.

@Michele...you are right...the money in education is not in classroom teaching...it's in administration. Don't forget about that little bump in pay they do in the years before retirement to boost the pension draw. I don't think that happens with teacher pay but it sure does with administrator pay.

Laura Bee -The district doesn't reimbursed teachers for Masters Degree like corporations. Teachers use their own money to pay for their Masters degree. Yes, they do earn more money when the get their Masters, but what profession do you not earn more money with a higher level of education?

We vote for a School Board whom we entrust to hire quality Administrators to run day to day operations of the school district. If we vote for a Superintendent, then why even have a school board? If you don't like what's going on in your District look to the school board...your elected representatives. How is a Superintendent or any administrator stealing from the taxpayers when the school board has to approve their contract? No one forced the School Board pay more for our new Superintendent and Asst. Sup for Finance. They made that decision on your behalf as your representative. If someone offered you a 17-30% raise wouldn't you take it or would you give it back for the public good? That 's not greed, that's providing for your family.

The USA is based on capitalism, not socialism or communism. Capitalism means that value is determined by supply and demand. Currently there seems to be a lot of demand for good School Administrators. Have any of our administrators left for a worse situation economically? No. Are we having to pay more to replace the administrators who left? Yes. Part of compensation, however, includes intangible things like morale, location and work environment. So if there is a perceived worsening of the intangible compensation, more will be expected from the tangible side. I don't believe one can fault any of the current administrators for finding a better situation for themselves.

Not only are many teachers avoiding getting a masters, they have a reason to, sad to say. It makes them very hard to hire. .It is almost as if there is a statewide "quiet" close to a freeze on hiring educated teachers that have more than a Bachelors degree under their belts. Show me a district hiring Masters degreed teachers and I'll show you a district that cares for the quality of teaching in their district. And the teachers buy their own college funding, it's not given to them any more than some basic office supplies they have to buy out of their own pocket. Each year.

Laura, so your saying that "public servants" should receive sub standard pay and benefits because of the career path they have chosen? I also like how you lump them all together as lairs, cheats and thieves!! How do you know their replacements are going to be better. Remember, you get what you pay for in this world. You talk about there being a big line to take all the teachers place if they leave. If the replacements you mention are so great, how come another district has not hired them?? Not everyone with a teaching degree is a teacher! You make a lot of assumptions!! Is someone having a bad day?

Sure they are hiring less teachers with Masters degrees....Bachelor Degree are cheaper!

There is not tuition reimbursement. None. Nada.

The teachers that chose to (really more or less forced to) extend their education do so out of their own pockets, just like the pockets they use to spend money on their classrooms and students. After getting a masters degree, you are not just still a 3rd grade teacher, you are a better 3rd grade teacher with more resources and skills to teach. Taking masters level courses while still teaching does take talent. It takes a smart, hard-working person to balance the two. Teachers earning their masters degrees cannot take the time off and then return to teaching and certainly don't teach less while learning. Not to mention all the time and effort put into their own educations during the summer and other breaks which is when the bulk of their classes take place. The classes during the school terms often focus on things to improve the classes they are teaching. Rather than take away from your children, they are providing even more.

Please look into these matters before complaining about them and going off of here-say. Talk to a teacher sometime, maybe.

Better clean your crystal. It's a little distorted.

Many years ago I wrote in the Ledger "my wallet is not a laboratory for Dr. Behlow's experiments in education" I see some validity in the statement about a BS/BA 3rd grade teacher and a MS/MA 3rd grade teacher. 2+2 = 4 whether or not you use Everyday Math (stupidist program ever) or New Math or Old Math. There are changes in "techniques". I remember when I went to school we memorized multiplication tables and had weekly spelling tests. When my oldest kids went to BH 12 years ago there was neither, when I asked I was told it;s not part of the curriculum. When my son went to BH 3 years ago spelling was back but in 3rd grade there was still no memorization of multiplication facts. In 4th grade it was assigned as homework. in 5th grade it was back. So I guess my point is that there is too much "book smarts" in the teacher corps and not enough reality. One of my favorite reactions when I speak with a teacher, especially a young, untenured teacher is when I remind them they they were kids too, they'd prefer to swear that they never were kids. The older long time teachers are more inclined to agree that not all the "experiments" over the years have been the greatest.

Your blind. Get your facts straight.

@Committed.....I currently don't have a dog in the fight as I took my son out of District 308 last year because frankly...it sucks. However as there are limited choices for private high schools in the area he will probably return to the district unless I move elsewhere. I'm curious about the comment you made about grading. Are you talking K-5, JHS or HS level? I would say that 80% of the papers in K-5 were graded by the students and about the same in JHS with the exception of larger assignments. So is that time budgeted then for entering the scores of the student graded papers or for end of term grades being entered into the system and collecting the grades from PE, Art, etc? just curious.

Jane - I'm not sure where you work, but most corporations (not your obviously) encourage advanced degrees for their employees especially upper management if they already don't have one. Jane, do you have your masters? and can you speak to the Fluff classes that you've taken? If you don't have a Masters, don't speak about something you know nothing of. When did Education become a bad thing?

KarenN - more than one graduate degree, actually. Thanks for asking! : ) I've worked for several of the largest, publicly-traded, corporations in my particular industry. My spouse works with major corporations and has for almost 20 yrs now. In fact, he very rarely is asked to hire someone specifically with a graduate degree. This isn't the 1980s where everyone was rushing for an MBA. lol Are they out there and do many individuals with advanced education often make more? Sure. But certainly not all the time, and on the whole, it's rarely a consideration with most job descriptions. Experience and past performance consistently trump an advanced degree, in most instances. In my own case, I had a variety of reasons for pursuing the education that I did, but compensation increases were never tied to it, nor were promotions. I don't know that my employer even knew when I finished the last one. It wasn't something I bothered to point out.

Of course "Education" isn't a bad thing. I never said it was. I have lots of educators in my circle of family and friends and every single one of them has graduate-level degrees and most have maxed out the hours on the scales available to them in their particular districts. Why? Largely for compensation increases. Which, as I said, I see nothing particularly troubling about, given the system.

Interestingly, on the topic of advanced degrees, there are individuals who have not be interviewed for teaching positions because administrators have told them that they are not looking to hire teachers who would enter at those levels of compensation. That's not just in 308. It's happening in other areas, too.

Well said 308teacher!

Oh boy...here we go...the old how dare you criticize a teacher...we slave away turning your punks into diamonds routine. Before you jump on me, I have spent time in the classroom as a volunteer and that experience told me two things: 1) I could never do it day in and day out and 2) thank you teachers but if you are not happy with the commentary on here, it;s probably not going to get better in the short term, especially if pension reform comes to pass. The ship may not be sunk here but it sure is taking on a lot of water.

Hi John. I have a problem with criticism like hers because of the general nature. If she had specific issues and communicated them, that would be fine. To say " These are the same people that given the chance will lie, cheat and steal from the system" is simply someone voicing an opinion in which they have no idea of what they are talking about. I will not sit around and listen to that crap.

Let's get the facts about 10-year turnover. Other than the top level of our administration, is this year really different than others, or does it just seem like it is?

The BOE makes spending decisions based on recommendations and data provided by administrators, who have held back and slanted information to guide & direct that spending.

In Ilinois, teachers are NOT required to earn master's degrees. To maintain certification, they must accummulate 180 continuing professional development units over 5 years. This is achieved by taking courses and workshops and/or mentoring student teachers. Teachers hit higher pay grades by completing more courses.

Perhaps that is the case where you are from, but not here. Nothing wrong with a graduate degree, but as my long-time friend said to me, "My degree didn't make me a better teacher. I was already a good teacher. It did make me a better paid teacher." ; ) Nothing wrong with that either.

Then again, I'm not in the camp that feels that salaries above $60K should be reserved for those of us in the private sector. I can think of few things more worthy of compensating well than the individuals primarily responsible for educating our future workforce and community members. : ) I'd rather see those dollars going to teachers than to a lot of the other things I see money spent on in education - here and elsewhere!

In Illinois, teachers are NOT required to earn master's degrees. They are to accummulate 180 continuous professional development units over 5 years. These units are achieved by taking courses and workshops and mentoring student teachers. Their salaries increases as they hit higher pay grades. A master's degree can make it difficult to change districts, as many primarily hire kids just out of college and don't want to pay higher salaries.

Can you direct us to the source of your information about teacher salaries in 308 and in the local area?

lowest pay schedule in the area? I notice you didn't actually provide any evidence of that.

Here's the salary schedule for D308 teachers, it ranges between 40K/yr and 53K/yr for a 1st year teacher.
http://76.227.214.198/assets/5/employment/contract_teacher.pdf

Also notice, that the board(your property taxes) pay for the teachers contribution to the Pension system.

You read that right, D308 teachers don't actually pay for their own pension fund at all, your property taxes do.

Here's the D202 pay schedule;
http://www.psd202.org/Departments/AP/CERTSAL.pdf
it also ranges between 40K/yr and 55K/yr for a 1st year teacher.

Your non-supported claims contradict the information that has been publicly released from each of these school districts. Can you even name a district, and provide the actual evidence, to back up your claim of lower salary? It would seem that they are all equally out of sync with the private sector.

Tim, your argument would hold more water if you actually compared apples to apples.
First, you're comparing 2011-12 Oswego with 2010-2011 Naperville.
Second, you added in the TRS benefit for the Oswego salaries, but not for the Naperville salaries.

The REAL numbers for a first year teacher from the links you posted:
2011 Oswego $36,628 - $46,287
2010 Naperville $40,034 - $55,538

A difference of $3406 might not seem like a lot, but when it's nearly 10% of the salary, I'd call that a lot.

D202 is Plainfield, not Naperville.

And those numbers are not 10% different(its actually 9.4%), you are picking the 'before-TRS' payments in Oswego(that the board picks up), with the 'after-TRS payments' for Plainfield D202. Not coincidentally, the TRS contribution paid by property taxes is 9.4%, and is exactly the number you left out for some reason. Why would you not include the full salary for Oswego, with the full salary from Plainfield when trying to compare them.

I don't see anywhere in the 202 document that the salary listed includes TRS contributions. That's why I didn't include the TRS amount for D308.

I just misread the 202 and thought you were comparing to 203. Apologize for the error.

D202 also pays the TRS payments for the teachers, and includes this in S11.12 of the recently signed labor agreement;

http://www.psd202.org/Departments/BO/APT_Contract.pdf (page 22)
"Although designated by the Illinois Pension Code as teacher contributions, the amounts herein required to be contributed by the board are being paid by the board in lieu of contributions by the teacher"

The point being, that D308 teachers are nowhere near the low end of the scale, and in fact, when other benefits are included, are rated by third parties as number 1 in the entire state of Illinois.
http://www.teacherportal.com/district/illinois/Oswego-Cusd-308
"TeacherPortal Salary Rank: 1st"

Unless I'm missing something, that rank of 1 based on cost of living, salaries, etc. Per their site:

"Our Process
The Comfort Score examined average salaries (both starting and overall) and compared that to the cost of living. We then ranked each state by this metric to find which states were friendliest to teacher's - from a salary perspective." http://www.teacherportal.com/salary-comfort-index

That doesn't mean we pay the most. We don't. And anyway, who cares? We're arguing about a small difference while Rome is burning as the saying goes.

@Committed...well now you see why I seldom criticize teachers. If you dare to make a critical comment the immediate reaction is just what you gave, the old "How Dare You" routine. Save it, it's old and worn out, teachers are no different than an other group, they are not a sacred thing that has to be accepted without question. My oldest is 23 and my youngest is 14 so I have played the game before. As I suspected there is less or in your case no student grading of papers....are you saying that not even xeroxed worksheets are in that? Well if you are interested I can show you a whole tub of papers from a District 308 K-5 school which were student graded, you can tell they were because the student who graded signed the paper, this was routine apparently in this school as I have them from different grade levels. Now its been two years since our last one left there so maybe it's different now? Perhaps you are having them write poems or short stories of several pages. I'm talking about the single sheet worksheet type stuff.